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create edited 162d ago
tag grooming
Tag description Depicts the systematic psychological manipulation of a character (typically younger or inexperienced) into sexual compliance though prolonged emotional conditioning.
note Common enough trope and would help people searching for the psychological subtext this gives

Examples(17)

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  1. lenga 67d ago

    Edited to fit swiftyooh's description since it's better

    Description
    -When and adult manipulates a younger partner into the relationship. Applies to a parent that raises their children thinking incest is okay or a teacher that gives a student psichological support to get in their pants and creating a emotional dependence.
    +Depicts the systematic psychological manipulation of a character (typically younger or inexperienced) into sexual compliance though prolonged emotional conditioning.

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143 Comments

40-sai archwizard
40-sai archwizard
@akashako Nah, I say keep the current tag name. If we're going to blur the tag name then might as well do it with the other current problematic tags. rape = forced invitation loli = 2000 year old dragon girl guro = internal anatomy presentation scat = cake and pastry etc. etc. lol "I can imagine another uproar of "anime literally has a grooming tag" and japanese creators and business find themselves in deep shit again because of some nonsense that started overseas and they never knew about" - you all got caught up with those words that would rather belong to Reddit? There are already a lot of existing problematic tags and grooming is tame compared to some of the worst out there. Reminder: these are artworks and not real life, freedom of artistic expression trumps moral opinion.
lenga
lenga
That said, I think cultivation isn't quite there yet
lenga
lenga
But honestly I don't care too much for the name, even though I think it need to be something that's clearly what it intents to tag so people can actually find it naturally from the top of their heads instead of having to search for it like asking other people about it on reddit or something
lenga
lenga
If I understand correctly you're saying the act of adding this tag will signal to other people that we like this thing? Honestly I think this thing works more in favor of those who don't like it so they can block it. It's like cropophilia, necrophilia, bestiality, rape. There's more people seeking to rule them out of their results than people actively looking for them to read.
akashako
akashako
@fuckriri1234 Yeah, "buttering up" doesn't have that implied conditioning. That's why I proposed "cultivation". It's close enough to grooming to still have a similar meaning, but without the current negative association.
akashako
akashako
@lenga I get that people get off to some fucked up shit, I'm one of them. However, the reason I'm against it is because of the amount of the "think of children" excuse crusades that seem to be happening more and more. With "grooming" being one of the current antipathised buzzwords, it would let people say, "look, they know they're doing an evil thing. We must shut them down." And I would like to prevent that from happening if possible. Grooming is the most valid name for the tag, but the average hater will use it as an excuse to attack the site. That is the reason that I'm against the tag, in name only. It's a trope that exists and one that is big enough to deserve to be tagged.
fuckriri1234
fuckriri1234
@akashako "buttering up" doesn't mention anyt about a "prolonged process" tho. basic seduction often includes buttering up, so i'm not a fan of that name change @40-sai i am also worried that the tagging may not always be correct, however, the benefit of having a hub for grooming galleries far outweighs the occasional mis-tagged gallery imo
lenga
lenga
Similarly, a lot of tags already have pretty negative views and to be honest this site as a whole is negatively viewed by society. Rape isn't "violent coercion to sex" Lolicon isn't "youthful female" Chikan isn't "mr. Fluffy hands train passenger" Tags can have negative names, that's what people use to search for to jerk off to them and that's what people will use to block the tag. Just accept that people get hard to morally and legally questionable thing. I mean this with the kindest intent, we are already on nhentai, people will judge you regardless
lenga
lenga
I think being opposed only to how the tag's name is perceived isn't a valid reason to change it. Hardly anyone who's attracted to this would search for buttering up and Cultivation is a manhua trope like isekai is in manga and tower system is in manhwa.
akashako
akashako
While I understand lord411 emotions on this tag and agree that it should not be added, he has failed to provide any alternatives. However, i do want a tag that is exactly grooming, but with just a different name. For the same reasons as someone having a kneejerk reaction of "look, they are doing that thing." Which is ironic. I want to propose a different name. "Cultivation" or taken from 40-sai "Buttering up" "A character creating an appearance of trust in someone by phychologically manipulating and conditioning another character over time."
lenga
lenga
This whole fiasco was really one guy getting riled up about this tag and bringing his own pre-formed thoughts about things and not trying to engage in the conversation like an adult and just fighting everyone else. Until that guy showed up pretty everyone agreed about the need for the tag even if the description wasn't the best
40-sai archwizard
40-sai archwizard
"Tag taxonomy guidelines Staff makes the final call." Whether one commenter likes the tag proposal or not personally is irrelevant; if admins want that suggested tag after consideration it will be done. Period. While I personally dislike having this proposal at first due to potential mistagging, if the description is clear enough (emphasis on the 'buttering up' and the 'duration' parts) then alright the current description did its job. I'll just have to make sure to downvote those mistagged doujinshi when I see them, those who upvoted this should too. If there's adjustments to be made, how about changing that part of the description into "into consensual sexual compliance" to differentiate from blatant forced sex as suggested by @Imatterfap earlier? (Also, whoever posted the words "open invitation for shitshow" and "This is just stupid" first is the one who introduced toxicity in this discussion and loses the right to be "personally offended" when things doesn't go his way.)
ranchdong
ranchdong
I think you are too caught up in the weeds, this idea that every piece of media on the site needs tagged as grooming because of what it is in the real world or that we cannot have a tag if it's not perfectly defined is insane. There is no morality issue either as you said the morality of a work is up to the author. If a father and daughter are going at it like crazy and it's normal to that world then whatever it doesn't get this tag. You apply a tag if the content explicitly shows up in a work. IE if there are explicit and discreet mentions of training or teaching, rewarding them for sex, molding them into a sex toy, clear emotional manipulation, etc. Take a step back and think what a tag accomplishes in the context of the site. It's so someone can search and ultimately orgasm to a specific concept or situation.
lord411
lord411
And actually this is a very good proposal - for a massive shitstorm. Atp I wouldn't expect idiots to be aware about reality, but the existing controversies have already been too much. Censorship and anti-anime activists groups along with cooperates are directly attacking japanese creators and adult businesses. An entire industry was pushed to the verge of ruin and thousands of jobs have already been hit. After this I can imagine another uproar of "anime literally has a grooming tag" and japanese creators and business find themselves in deep shit again because of some nonsense that started overseas and they never knew about. All that just because some dumbasses were getting turning on by 8 letters and thought their favorite doujin should fit their epstein fantasy or something.
lord411
lord411
@ranchdong Go ahead and ban me if you want but I stand by my points. If it's a fine description in your "opinion" then why don't you answer the questions and explain why this nonsense should be considered at all. Actually before that I have to ask you which "description" are you exactly referring to because there are already 4 different definitions in the thread with no clear rhyme or reason for where it does or doesn't apply. After the shit the bottomline here is that this is just a buzzword dumbasses want to slap on whatever they feel like.
ranchdong
ranchdong
Bro.. like how tf you guys expect me to react to this. I almost have a mind to just ban everyone involved.. or delete the whole suggestion, which mind you has a fine description in my opinion. Fighting like this goes against the entire purpose of taxonomy and means I now have to build reports into taxonomy so I get visibility into crap like this, to be fair I probably should of to begin with but whatever. Please be more constructive and collaborative in the future.
starscepter
starscepter
Wee woo wee woo! Spelling police stopping in... You forgot an 'r' in 'through', as "sexual compliance THOUGH prolonged emotional conditioning" does not make sense.
lord411
lord411
@lenga Now you are offended by normal punctuation? And read more hentai if you think possessive or controlling characters are anything new. And forget the question if your example counts as "grooming" or not when it doesn't even involve any manipulation, it's just plain seduction. Only further shows how random and pointless this is
lenga
lenga
Take those quotation marks away NOBODY here said the grooming tag is "inexperienced kid introduced to sex by older woman" like you seem to be reading. What makes the code I pointed out so obviously grooming is how it is a key point of the story how he starts being dependent on the milf and how possessive and toxic the relationship is portrayed, how she is jealous and doesn't want him near other girls, how she molds his life around their relationship not ending and not getting found out. Your premise is all wrong from the start, please rethink everything from the start with the actual intent of the tag
lord411
lord411
@lenga if is "grooming" then every fucking shota doujin is just a few examples of the usual plot of "inexperienced kid introduced to sex by older woman'. and even if it's obviously grooming by real world logic, it's not "grooming" or "predatory" in any way here. the best example you could find was where the boy is clearly into it. if this is what you had in mind when proposing this then this proposal was really bullshit to begin with
40-sai archwizard
40-sai archwizard
I'll give this one an upvote. Why? The discussion so far speaks for itself. Also @ admins, you see toxic, you know what to do. >:)
lenga
lenga
The work that better picture this is "My childhoood friend is doing it with my mom" 1st - It's pretty clear it is grooming, I can't think of a better exemple to help you see this is something on it's own
lord411
lord411
and you can't see how this is subjective when this proposal and definition has already gone atleast 3 completely different directions and still doesn't even remotely refer to any consistent trope in hentai. and top of that you try to strawman other objective tags as being "more subjective" then your nonsense. it's completely clear that "wholesome" refer to genuine relationships or happy ending, size-based tags are also objectively about size and the debate is only about where to draw the line. "grooming" doesn't refer to anything in hentai, and if i does present clear examples of what does or doesn't count, or how maybe first decide for yourself what do you even consider "grooming" for yourself
lord411
lord411
@lenga you don't even know what "grooming" itself is. any form of manipulation of children into any form of sexual activity is considered grooming by law, and it does include threatening the victim to maintain secrecy. and the nonsense you wrote about rape also baffles me. forget your lack of knowledge about hentai, you don't even have proper knowledge about reality.
lenga
lenga
Other more subjetive tags: very long hair (to the ankles? brushing the floor? below the waist?) big breasts - huge breasts (whats the border?) small breast (is no breast (flat) at all just as small as a B/C-cup?) WHOLESOME (what is it if not what most people agree it's wholesome based on how they feel?) Every single tag has a little subjetive feel to it because this a global platform, in some cultures if the woman doesn't explicitly say no it's not rape, other may only consider it rape if it has violence or threat involved but not if she is passed out or asleep, in some the woman still have to clearly say Yes even if they are with their legs open waiting for you in bed. This is what I meant when I said every tag is everyone pushing what they believe fits and what most people agree is what holds true
lenga
lenga
THIS IS NOT SUBJECTIVE A tag is only subjective if it relies on how a viewer feels about a scene. Grooming involves specific steps you can watch happen, like giving secret gifts or isolating someone from their friends or telling them to keep it a secret if they care about the groomer. This is not an "everytime an older person approaches the younger one it's grooming" no one ever said that, a father that manipulates his daughter into keeping their sexual relationship a secret by threatening with grounding or physical harm isn't grooming, it's coercion by threat of violence. On the other hand, if the same father tells his daughter to not tell anyone otherwise he will go to prison and she wouldn't want that because she loves him, or telling her to keep away from her friends that find it weird how close they are by saying they are jealous is actually grooming. I can't see how this is subjective, these aren't up how the reader feels.
lord411
lord411
> even on this hentai site, we base tags off of our real-world understandings of morality. Just because some galleries will have different "norms" than reality doesn't change the fact that the tags we use to describe them are based on reality. To my knowledge, the sole exception to this is underage character(s) which would constitute rape IRL (defined as non-consent) but doesn't in hentai Now I am fully convinced that idiots making these proposals and loudly arguing here don't even read hentai. INCEST, POLYGAMY, HYPNOSIS, SEXUAL SLAVERY, BEASTILITY, CHEATING AND AFFAIRS, AND COUNTLESS OTHER THINGS NORMAL IN HENTAI ARE ALL CRIMINAL OR TABOO IN REAL LIFE. HENTAI MORALITY IS COMPLETELY DISCONNECTED FROM REALITY
lord411
lord411
[2/2] @fuckriri1234 seems personally offended by my points and has been loudly advertised me as "strawmaning", "balantly misrepresenting", "a failure of a brick wall, and more while doing the exact same things they scream at me. @fuckriri1234 has made this thread far too complicated and confusing writing pages worth of nonsense to twist my words, revert away from the points, aggressively denying that the discussion before even happened, and just toxic insults. The only one being completely indigenous and trying to revert against discourse while strawmaning and gaslighting other users is the loud @fuckriri1234.
lord411
lord411
[1/2] I'll have to address @fuckriri1234's comments which are the major source of confusion here. For @fuckriri1234 this has become a matter of personal ego with their behavior becoming more and more toxic. This all started when I pointed out how this is an entirely subjective nonsense; and to quote the reply of @lenga the user who made this proposal word by word "Every single tag is people pushing what they believe fits" And that's entirely a misunderstanding on @lenga's part as they completely ignored that tags are supposed to be objective and the guidelines clearly mention not to make proposal to "push personal preference". I further pointed how definition of "grooming" itself has gone entirely different directions, and I demanded clear examples to make any case for this nonsense, among other points.
lord411
lord411
2. I keep saying this again and again, even if I try to consider this seriously, there is no fucking way to define "grooming" or what should or shouldn't be considered predatory in hentai. Morality in hentai could be whatever the fuck the author decides 3. I am so sorry for being the guy who goes against the flow of the echo chamber
lord411
lord411
I am only going to reiterate and summarize 1. This proposal was started to have the term "grooming" itself as a tag and no proper examples or even a proper explanation for what trope it's supposed to refer to. Since then the discussion shifted to defining "grooming" itself with specific details being added after and in response to my comments. But there's still no proper definition that describes any consistent trope in hentai with the random examples being given onlt being subjective at best
lord411
lord411
I don't jerk off for two days because of work and then I come back to find this mess
fuckriri1234
fuckriri1234
@M8 GTE dont even worry i've completely disengaged from lord411 in this discussion the only reason i chimed in was because they were blatantly misrepresenting the proposal, and i noticed 5~ downvotes in less than half a day (and @akashako the goat seemed confused) their disinformation needed to be shut down once and for all, and so I did just that before discussion became even more convoluted the history has been saved, so im leaving it up to voters to decide who's in the right; who's arguing based on logic vs emotion
M8 GTE
M8 GTE
@fuckriri1234 Just ignore them dude. They are getting pissy and being way too critical over a hentai tag. It's seriously not that big of a deal. There are worse nonsensical tags out there.
fuckriri1234
fuckriri1234
@lord411 > like i already said there is no clear way to define "grooming" or morality in hentai [...] because morality and logic works differently in this series - Probably your only sensical point, but even then, it's pretty dumb. Why do you think the rape tag even exists? Why do you think [normalized taboo], [normalized incest], [commonplace sex], and related proposals are as popular as they are? Because, even on this hentai site, we base tags off of our real-world understandings of morality. Just because some galleries will have different "norms" than reality doesn't change the fact that the tags we use to describe them are based on reality. To my knowledge, the sole exception to this is underage character(s) which would constitute rape IRL (defined as non-consent) but doesn't in hentai Feel free to respond, but I'm disengaging from this failure of a conversation. No point in talking to a brick wall
fuckriri1234
fuckriri1234
@lord411 > there are countless hentai where characters are hypnotized or raped at first and later become a couple [... more examples ...] all the characters later willingly become part of MC's harem - None of these examples contain "prolonged emotional conditioning," but I don't expect someone incapable of critical thought to understand what that means. Twice already, you've failed to provide any examples addressing the current description. So yes, you are straw-manning the proposal: you are attacking a description that you have constructed for yourself, not the actual one
fuckriri1234
fuckriri1234
@lord411 > you call me "delusional" when you are throwing bullshit you call "numerous points" thinking you are so smart, atp i'll give straight it to you, you are all big fucking idiots - You asked for examples, I gave you some. You said they were standard "loli-father" incest, I gave you exact quotes why they weren't. You said the description and commenters were all over the place, I showed you why they weren't. You gave examples and claimed that 80% of galleries would have "grooming," I said you're confusing power dynamics and grooming. You have not, nor can you, address a single one of these because your argument has been completely dismantled. You instead ignore these points and resort to name-calling or harp on your misunderstanding of this proposal as if it actually changes anything at all. But yeah, we're the idiots. How cute
fuckriri1234
fuckriri1234
[6] > pg 34, 36, 38-40 These are just flashbacks, there's no manipulation or emotional conditioning taking place. I had actually created a proposal that would apply here, but withdrew it to give myself space for a different one. Seem to have lost the link, oh well > - There's nothing "prolonged" so this wouldn't be grooming. There also isn't any "emotional conditioning" taking place - Yes, mothers and sons have an emotional connection, but that is our *implicit* understanding of parenthood. She doesn't *explicitly* make it known that she's using his emotions to manipulate him which is necessary for tags in general - It's like how we implicitly understand that all females are a [daughter], or that all males are a [son]. Tagging galleries based on our implicit understanding instead of the gallery's explicit contents is non-sensical
fuckriri1234
fuckriri1234
[5] - [multi-work series can have grooming] in that the initial chapter(s) depict the process while later chapter(s) just show the outcome... The galleries are separated, so the later ones don't contain this process outright. Would the later chapters still be tagged as grooming? I'd say no, but it's an interesting thought > This tag is about the process/method of (and not about:) acquiring sexual compliance through a established relationship. - If you meant relationship in the romantic sense, then no. A father can groom his daughter without an established romantic relationship. If you meant relationship in the connected/acquainted sense, well there's bit more nuance (must be prolonged and "acquiring sexual compliance" is not necessary), but overall on the right track > pgs 1-4 - I would say this leans more toward love-bombing, not grooming. While the manipulation is implied to be "prolonged" and started on a younger character, the brother is not "systematic" in his approach
fuckriri1234
fuckriri1234
[4] @Imatter > Does using an already existing relationship, that was not build with grooming in mind, still count if they just so thought of using it as grooming? - Yes. You can start/enter a relationship in the most vanilla, wholesome way possible. But a partner can later on decide to groom the other > At the end, the characters relationship needs to remain the same or something more after the sexual stuff? - Again, success is not necessary, though it most oftentimes is in hentai. Whether the relationship stays or changes doesn't change the fact that grooming occurred > if none of the participants parties is actively grooming but have a relationship that seems to be born from grooming, should be assumed grooming? - The entire process of "prolonged manipulation" is not shown in the gallery, so I'd say it wouldn't qualify for the grooming tag. However, there's an argument to be made that multi-work series can have grooming
fuckriri1234
fuckriri1234
[3] @Imatter > yeah, ig [grooming] is mostly known as sexual abuse, I have been wondering, what about works where that trust is broken and there's not a good relationship between the characters anymore? - Certainly, a character can manipulate their partner using their trust. It can be grooming, but is more oftentimes an example of gaslighting > If these don't count, I think rephrasing the description to "a successful manipulation" will make less confusing - Success isn't necessary. Hell, the outcome doesn't even need to be shown. The prolonged process of manipulation itself is sufficient for grooming > grooming is every successful manipulation to sexual compliance created through a relationship? - Not entirely. Not only is success irrelevant, the process must be prolonged. Also see the points that @lenga brought up
fuckriri1234
fuckriri1234
[2] @Imatter > just thought no penetration would still count as sexual compliance. blowjob, titjob, thighjob still count as sexual to me. either way, you do you - @lenga was just explaining that a gallery can have grooming (the manipulation part), but absolutely no sexual activity (not even blowjob) @Imatter reply to @lord411 > I think intention is the difference, otherwise my parents were grooming me > what do you mean? isn't grooming mental exploitation? - Don't bother @lord411 is just fighting a ghost description that they made up themselves instead of the one in place right now. Pretty sure they're trolling atp @lenga > The difference between <grooming> and <manipulation> is the time window, grooming doesn't happen in a day or two, manipulation or deceit does - Not only is it confusing to say they're different, the time window part is also not true. Grooming is simply a type of manipulation, as are love-bombing, gaslighting, or guilt-tripping (to name a few). Small correction
fuckriri1234
fuckriri1234
@Imatter [1] > (Remove) "of a character" since psychological manipulation already implies a mind of a character - fair enough, but this part leads into the "(typically younger ...)" part which I think is helpful to have > (Remove) "typically younger or inexperienced" since they're not always younger or inexperienced, right? - I also used to think it was redundant to add "commonly," "often," "typically," or anything like it, but now I think it's fine to keep. It doesn't take up much space, nor is it an absolute statement. It also clarifies tags pretty well > (Remove) "into sexual compliance" is there a scenario where sexual compliance doesn't happen but you would still tag as grooming? - Technically, yes, grooming can be non-sexual, i.e. prolonged manipulation for financial gain. I think the power and control is the most fetishized part, so removing "sexual compliance" isn't a terrible idea. But it's a hentai site where sexual compliance is the most common end-goal, so what can you do
Imatterfap_Asamatte_Roff_Act_8
Imatterfap_Asamatte_Roff_Act_8
I guess so, but it was genuine confusion nonetheless, I'm down to just delete said shitshow if this comment section feels too noise
fuckriri1234
fuckriri1234
@Imatterfap only you and @lord411 are shitting bricks about this proposal. Everything was standard discussion and everyone agreed with the description before 5 days ago when this shitshow started also, that's a completely circular definition. later tn i'll look back at your own confusion, but the current description already encapsulates what grooming is perfectly
Imatterfap_Asamatte_Roff_Act_8
Imatterfap_Asamatte_Roff_Act_8
man, at this point, if this tag ever gets accepted will be with a description like: "A work where a character acquires sexual compliance of another through grooming." seems like the best way to avoid talking about what grooming is, lol but could also be: "A work where a character acquires sexual compliance of another through a systematic manipulation involving prolonged emotional conditioning."
lord411
lord411
and even if i try to consider it seriously, like i already said there is no clear way to define "grooming" or morality in hentai. there are countless hentai where characters are hypnotized or raped at first and later become a couple because hentai logic. There are countless loli shota hentai where the older girl/guy introduces the shota/loli to sex or even rapes them. there are hentai where slavery or human objectification is depicted to be normal. in Reincarnation Coliseum/Tensei Coliseum several girls are unwillingly forced into slavery, druged and raped. and all the characters later willingly become part of MC's harem because morality and logic works differently in this series
lord411
lord411
@fuckriri1234 you call me "delusional" when you are throwing bullshit you call "numerous points" thinking you are so smart, atp i'll give straight it to you, you are all big fucking idiots. just the fact that a bunch of dumbasses seriously said "let's create a grooming tag" was already laughable, what is your next proposal going to be, an "epstein" tag? and even the guidelines clearly mention proposals shouldn't be made to "push personal preferences". this nonsense started with the "grooming" label itself and the entire discussion has been about how to define the tag so it could labeled onto something. instead of describing any real trope this proposal is entirely about having a certain term as a tag, which just "personal preference" making this proposal already invalid by guidelines
fuckriri1234
fuckriri1234
> The current discussion is completely about defining "grooming" itself instead of presenting examples of "grooming in hentai" - @lenga gave an example an entire month ago had you bothered to actually read the discussion > If you haven't even decided wtf the former is, then why tf was this proposal even made? - It's almost like description's aren't perfect when they're initially proposed. Who'd've thought? > Obviously because some people really want hentai to be labeled "grooming" and now they are randomly making shit up - Debating the most logical and concise definition is "making shit up" to you? Lmao > I feel stupid myself for even trying to keep things logical in this dance of ridiculousness - I brought up numerous points, you can't even be bothered to address a single one. How delusional can you be to honestly think that you're trying to engage in honest discourse
Imatterfap_Asamatte_Roff_Act_8
Imatterfap_Asamatte_Roff_Act_8
@lenga quite the text, smells like chatgpt, anyway. This tag is about the process/method of (and not about:) acquiring sexual compliance through a established relationship. I found these and were partially the reason of my questions before, so most may be not, but what do you say is and isn't: https://nhentai.net/g/656324/ https://nhentai.net/g/665527/ https://nhentai.net/g/464165/ https://nhentai.net/g/209087/ https://nhentai.net/g/521661/ https://nhentai.net/g/426827/ https://nhentai.net/g/487802/
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