Merge: anal intercourse → anal » nhentai

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merge 91d ago

tag anal intercourse 33.2k tag anal 124.2k

note I know they're not the same thing, but the "anal intercourse" tag isn't even added most of the time, and to me it doesn't feel like there's a need to differentiate. Also I'm looking at the current situation and I'm thinking we need to start merging more tags otherwise we're gonna have too many

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Osamu09

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On the other hand, I think it's extremely confusing to propose a merge which generalizes the umbrella anal to penis+ass and then create "exception tags" It would be orders of magnitude easier to keep anal as anything related to rectum stimulation. Anal fingering, toys, etc are no longer "exceptions", they're just subtags. Subtags which equate to ~12.5% of the anal set. The rest of the anal set (AI, or ~87.5%) is just ignored due to its large overlap with the superset anal

I'm not gonna bother tagging each point like before because I think it just boils down to this: does anal intercourse overlap with anal enough to remove the need for it as a tag? Even if 87.5% of anal galleries had intercourse (as you said), I don't think the removal of the intercourse tag is warranted. I think subtagging in a such a way where the superset is entirely represented is completely fine. Yes it's high, yes it's a bit redundant. But it optimized where the search bar failed Consider incest. We have (or likely will) essentially all of its subsets: mother, son, daughter, father, cousin, aunt, uncle, grandparents (split), and so on. These subsets added together *form* the incest tag itself. Basically 95% or more of the incest superset is accounted for by these different tags. Similarly, the sum of anal's subsets (anal intercourse, fingering, rimjobs, pegging, etc) would equate to most of the anal tag itself. It shouldnt matter that most of it comes from AI.

I actually thought about it again and relative redundancy might be enough in this case, someone would have to build a case though

@fuckriri1234 In conclusion I personally still think the merge makes sense on a practical level. Less tagging and less redundancy

[5.1.2] you're actually right, but I'm not necessarily wrong. I guess we're just trying to solve 2 different things. So it just depends on what someone think it's better to prioritize and how much they think this merge would help [5.2] in case you missed it, the reason why "anal intercourse" is currently 1/4 of "anal" is that the tag was added more recently. Also I just realized AI is "Anal Intercourse" lol [7.3] yeah, that's why my reasoning hinged on just one tag that can include most of everything that's anal related but not anal intercourse. It's a bit too tricky though, so it's likely not possible in practice. But to clarify, that wouldn't change my core idea, which is it's easy to find anal intercourse if you search for "anal" because they overlap quite a lot

@fuckriri [3.1] The issue being that there's 2 things to actually consider, total redundancy and relative redundancy. The latter is how redundant the tag is in a set of other tags, like in "females only" the redundancy should theoretically be 0%, while in "males only" the redundancy is probably at least 90%. Then there's more interesting tags to consider such as "tail plug" and "pegging". One thing that I failed to realize is how relative redundancy can be enough to justify a tag. But in this specific case, because it's a very common tag, I don't think relative redundancy would be enough. So overall it's better to focus on the total redundancy and in this case yeah, I shouldn't blacklist anything, which is what I did just now This time I checked 200 works. I didn't count bestiality, tentacles or strap-ons as anal intercourse. The result is 87.5% with a margin of error of like 5% (you're gonna have to trust chatGPT on that, but there's a formula)

@fuckriri [2.2] I was just paraphrasing what @Fernarl said. Anyway I think anything higher than 50% could be considered as too common. Of course that's just enough to make a case against it, the higher the percentage the stronger the case. I don't think it's necessary to use a fixed number as that's not the only parameter that should be considered [3.3 (aka 2.3)] I think you completely misunderstood. I'm just saying that with more tags to choose from, it's easier to look for a specific work. That's of course neither here nor there, I was just explaining my previous reasoning that wasn't accurate [3.1] I mean, perfectly would mean 100%, I never said that. With 75% one could make the argument the tag isn't overlapping too much, but my assumptions and previous data suggest a number close to 90%. I took the 75% from your own example. Overall I can see how my initial search might've been flawed. More details on the next comment

> [7.3] if you remove "toys only anal" from the search and include "anal" you would find anal intercourse. - except you wouldn't. Suppose we follow through where anal = penis + ass and exception tags are created. Things like toys only anal, anal fingering, licking, etc. You would have to blacklist all of these exception tags to get galleries that contain _at least some_ anal intercourse. But by blacklisting those all, you are completely ignoring the numerous galleries that have intercourse on top of one of those exception tags. It's the same concept you brought up with the blowjob + masturbation, and that I mentioned about generous tagging on the site's galleries.

> [5.2] once again the math ain't mathing. If we go by your previous example of 75% it would be 1.3 times bigger - the 75% was a hypothetical prevalence rate. I said 4x because anal is currently 4x as large as AI. It very well could be 75% or more, but its impossible to know. Again, where would you draw the line [2.2] > [6.3] I'm not really sure what your criteria are. I believe "default" should be like the simplest version of something. And in that case being naked is clearly simpler than wearing clothes (in the context of a hentai) - My mistake I must've misunderstood. I read "default" as "so vague and broad it applies to basically every gallery," Clothes, hair (not pubic, just regular hair), things like that.

> [5.1] Still personally I would rather have less tags even if it meant not being able to search more accurately - I don't think having a large number of tags is an issue, having non-continuous names is. That's why you'll see me on so many discussions preaching about following pre-existing standards, or ideating new ones that may flow more logically > In the first place I always assumed you can't search thing with perfect accuracy [...] So since accuracy was already kind of meh, I decided to prioritize a clean set of tags - This is ass-backwards for lack of a better term. Having more tags (specific and intentional) picks up where the search bar fails. I also dont think an "anal intercourse" tag prevents a "clean set of tags" in the first place

> [3.1] it would be at least 75%, making it the popular scenario - Not only did you concede it's not perfectly representative, I think your methodology was flawed to begin with. You're looking for the ratio of anal intercourse galleries to anal, so why blacklist anything at all? Search anal as a whole. The query you explained (iirc) totalled ~5k anal but not anal intercourse galleries > [3.3] - I understood what you meant by redundant. I just dont think it overlaps as much as you think it does. Read my question on [2.2] > [4.3] - I just think it's better to avoid specific subtags of already existing subtags. It's kind of hard to explain properly but hopefully you get the point - Heard loud and clear (I think, lmk if im misunderstanding). Basically they overlap too much, so AI serves very little purpose. Again, my gripe with that is that it's impossible to prove that true or false given the size of the anal tag

> [2.2] anal fingering is too common in an anal setting but toys wouldn't be so I proposed a "toys only" - where do you draw the line where something is "too common" to create a subtag? Like, if 50% of anal galleries had fingering, would that be too much and not necessitate a subtag? I'm genuinely just trying to understand your thought process > [3.3] The reasoning was that if you're looking for something specific, like a work you have already read once, you can search for it more easily even without specifying "anal intercourse" - But you wouldn't... again 30k vs 120k, which one is easier to sift through? Now if the gallery isnt tagged with AI properly, tough luck. That's what the new system is for though

@fuckriri1234 [7.3] if you remove "toys only anal" from the search and include "anal" you would find anal intercourse. Though I forgot about "masturbation". I was also thinking about "solo action" as I always thought that it meant the character has no partner the whole time, but I've now realized that doesn't seem to be the case, which I think it's weird anyway to conclude, my last point was that it's better to tag the few rather than the many, which is the exceptions that don't have anal intercourse rather than all "anal" that has anal intercourse. I have to admit it's a bit trickier than I thought, but I still think even a partial solution like "toys only anal" or a new definition of "solo action" would be better than the alternative

@fuckriri1234 [5.1] your points about the handlebar only being able to handle AND logic are very solid. I never thought of it that way. Still personally I would rather have less tags even if it meant not being able to search more accurately. In the first place I always assumed you can't search thing with perfect accuracy, for example if you search 2 tags like "blowjob" and "masturbation" it doesn't mean they happen at the same time. So since accuracy was already kind of meh, I decided to prioritize a clean set of tags [5.2] once again the math ain't mathing. If we go by your previous example of 75% it would be 1.3 times bigger [6.3] I'm not really sure what your criteria are. I believe "default" should be like the simplest version of something. And in that case being naked is clearly simpler than wearing clothes (in the context of a hentai)

@Osamu09 thanks for the reply ik I got a little off the rails there, do forgive me I think the general issue is that you believe that anal intercourse is so prevalent in all anal galleries, that it's redundant to have it as a subtag I disagree with this assumption and it's impossible to prove it one way or the other without a) proper tagging for the intercourse subtag or b) a random, large, representative sample of every anal gallery on the site (I know you tried, but 40 isn't rlly representative, nor is it very applicable because your search query only returned a quarter of the 120k existing anal galleries iirc) And even if I granted you this premise as a good reason for the necessity of merging the two tags, many of your other arguments didn't. They mostly just showed that tagging needs to be more efficient and accurate.

@fuckriri1234 [3.3] perhaps I got a bit confused. What I meant to say is that "anal intercourse" is already partially redundant. Maybe redundant isn't the right word, the way I use it is to mean that something overlaps with something else, so any subtag is redundant, it's just the percentage of overlapping that changes. For example "mother" is 50% redundant because it's either "son" or "daughter", or I guess both, so maybe it should be 33% redundant, point stands. So my whole point with "anal" is that it overlaps like 90% or more as far as I can tell (point [3.1]) [4.4] I wasn't clear. My intention was never to remove subtags, I just think it's better to avoid specific subtags of already existing subtags. It's kind of hard to explain properly but hopefully you get the point. Anyway merging those two tags is just part of the same idea, which is having less tags, not because "anal intercourse" is too specific

@fuckriri1234 about [2.2] I was replying to @Fernarl and his point was that anal fingering is too common in an anal setting but toys wouldn't be so I proposed a "toys only". Though now I realize that's not the right solution, it should've been "anal toys" [2.3] It's indeed a bit wrong for me to say it won't be necessary with more tags. The reasoning was that if you're looking for something specific, like a work you have already read once, you can search for it more easily even without specifying "anal intercourse" [3.1] quoting myself > I checked 40 random works from before the "anal intercourse" was introduced [...] I found like 3 that might not be "anal intercourse" [...] extra 30 works on my favorites and they also all had anal intercourse except 1 or 2 Granted it's not a big sample size but unless someone tries to do the same and obtains very different results, you can't really dismiss the numbers. So it would be at least 75%, making it the popular scenario

Ig ill close with this for now Anal as a name itself implies an umbrella-like, broad nature. You can have anal as the umbrella, as well as those subtags you wanted like toys only anal, anal fingering, and anal licking. Now you may want to sit down for this, but hear me out. You can also have anal intercourse! It's amazing what supersets and subsets can do And it wouldn't even contradict the established definitions like your "toys only anal" did Ig I should've specified in [1] that anal intercourse = *human* penis in ass since intercourse, by definition, is two humans. The beastiality and tentacle examples wouldn't count

[7] > The same reasoning should be applied to tags "anal intercourse" in a work with "anal" should be the standard, not the exception - So then all "anal" is what anal intercourse currently is (penis + ass)? Terrific! Now let's make 10 "exception" tags for anal fingering, anal toys, anal licking, etc. Let's also parse through those 100k anal galleries and remove them if there's no penis + ass. Great idea > the reason why only 1/4 of them are tagged with "anal intercourse" is that it's a recent tag that older works don't have - Out of curiosity, what percent of "general buttstuff" (anal) galleries do you think includes penis + ass (anal intercourse)? > Rather than tagging all of those works as "anal intercourse", it's much more convenient to create a new tag like "toys only anal" and add the tag to the exceptions - Read that again. You defined anal as penis + ass (the standard) and want a new tag called "toys only ANAL". How does that make any sense??

[6] > And in a sense it also hinders you as you clearly remember it had anal intercourse, but as you said older works don't have that tag which would just confuse people even more - Good thing there's a new system to improve older works' tags! Even so, that doesn't even prove the necessity of merging the tags @Sinfulhavoc6 > I believe (anal intercourse) should stay, and have (anal) encompass all “butt stuff” tags - Precisely what it is/should be. Their current definitions are wrong, but it's pretty much always been used that way > If a tag would be a default then it shouldn't be added (such as "vanilla", "vaginal intercourse", "fully naked", etc.). - Crazy how not a single one of those are "default," they're just popular. "Clothing" is default whereas "nudity" is specific

[5] ** Subsets and diverse, specific tags make it possible to find niche galleries without relying on a faulty search bar which only handles AND logic. ** It's actually wild to me how you don't see that the search bar isnt as good as you think it is. Combining tags is helpful, yes, but it is terribly restrictive when galleries are tagged as generously as they are > As for downsides I see only 1 that's worth considering, which is [anal intercourse] helps people find specific works if they don't remember all details or the details are just too common - It also lets me search for all galleries with penis + ass in one go. I dont have to sift through the 4x as large "anal" to find new galleries with good penis + ass action > And even then it doesn't help too much as it's still a very common tag - Anal is an even more common tag, what is your point? If we merge, I would have to sift through 100k galleries of "anal" as opposed to the 30k "anal intercourse"

[4] > we can remove tags if they don't apply anymore - agreed. Start with the useless <50 gallery tags > All works with "anal intercourse" still contain "anal". So the only real issue is if "anal intercourse" is needed in the first place - yes, that is what a direct subset is. And that doesnt diminish the purpose of anal intercourse. On the contrary, that only proves why it should exist > And I get there's a difference, but it's really not as clearly defined as you say - It really is lol > "anal intercourse" is a subtag of "anal". And that's where my idea of merging the tags comes from. People were already suggesting subtags of existing tags. So I thought we should avoid doing that just to keep things more clean - And there it is. Why not create "hentai" and "non-hentai" tags and just delete every other tag on this site? This may qualify as the dumbest thing I have read on this taxonomy page so far

[3] > In the end I believe that a balance is needed between the amount of tags and how easy it is to find what you're looking for, and finding something with anal intercourse doesn't seem that hard - Even if anal intercourse was properly tagged, it would still be substantially less popular than anal. Even if 75% of anal had anal intercourse, that's an extra 25k+ of galleries that aren't intercourse. It's crazy to try and justify that, "it doesnt seem that hard [to find anal intercourse on anal-tagged galleries]" > But in the first place the reason I suggested the merge is because to me they're similiar enough to where a distinction is not needed - Genuinely flabbergasted > with new tags being created it only makes sense that some tags are gonna become at least somewhat redundant and this looked like a prime candidate - what tags are being (or do you expect will be) created that would remotely get close to replacing this one?

[2] > most of the doujin that should have the anal intercourse tag don't - Okay, tag it better then. Both tags have a clear, purposeful distinction that warrants both of their existences. If we do merge them, I suspect that demand for an anal intercourse tag would just come back up and we would have to go back and re-tag the galleries > It might be better to create a "toys only" tag, though I guess "solo action" already creates the distinction whenever there's a real dick or not - genuinely don't see how this is relevant. A character can finger someone else as foreplay. Neither toys nor solo nor intercourse > Though I still think that in the long run, when all tags are gonna be virtually applied correctly, it's not gonna be necessary - Disagree. Galleries are so diverse on this site, between tankoubons, anthologies, etc. and the current way of searching is not capable of returning *all* of the exact results you want. Specific, intentional tags like anal intercourse do

[1] This reasoning is so odd @Osamu09 First, can we establish anal intercourse = penis in asshole. May be a futa, dickgirl, etc. but not a strap-on or other sex toy. Anal = anything inserted into asshole. May be a dick, tentacle, strap-on, one could even argue a tongue. It's an umbrella tag and anal intercourse is a direct subset of it (btw the current description on anal is also wrong) > "anal intercourse" tag isn't even added most of the time, and to me it doesn't feel like there's a need to differentiate - Good thing there's a new system in place to make tagging better. Also, you dont see how some would prefer penis + ass and not buttplug + ass? > Also I'm looking at the current situation and I'm thinking we need to start merging more tags otherwise we're gonna have too many - Yes, might want to start by merging/deleting the <50 gallery tags instead of the >30k gallery tags lol

@silversaw it would help if you could elaborate

no it shouldn't be merged

Even though the e-hentai definition says strap-on is included, in practice it really is not, even for recent doujins.

according to describe anal intercourse +94, using a strap-on is still considered as intercourse. And people seem to agree with it, which, depending on how you see it, could be in favor of this suggestion. It all boils down to opinions and here's mine. I don't like the idea that a strap-on is considered as intercourse and here's why. I often wonder why people suggest tags like create tag bladder penetration +5, and the only thing that came to my mind is because in an intercourse both partners are feeling good (or at least are being directly stimulated). But if we take that out of the picture and a strap-on is used, what makes it different from using any other object? Just because it "simulates it" doesn't seem good enough of an argument so technically that description makes it seem like there's no difference, which means this suggestion makes sense

Honestly I'm not trying to insist, I just noticed it had been a week and no resolution yet so I tried to push it in some direction. There's a limit of 8 suggestions per user, and out of all of them this is the one that I'm actually the least favorable to

@petertje oh wow, I just realized this comments sections is mostly a back and forth between us lol anyway I just tried as you suggested and the results are indeed very different. Out of 20 doujinshi I checked, like almost 15 had no anal intercourse, which actually makes me wonder if "tail plug" should even be tagged with "anal" in the first place. I noticed that often the tail is inserted from the very beginning which already removes most of the usual fun you get from the "anal" tag. Overall I really think some of those works should have the "anal" tag removed. Other than that I haven't really changed idea since most of the time the penetration part of the "anal" is in full view and as I said from the beginning to me it doesn't feel like it should matter if it's a real penis or not, but most of the time it still is

Honestly I really don't understand your insistence for this merge. It's straight up against the guidelines, there's a clear distinction between the tags and there are lots of people who want that distinction. It was introduced for a reason after all.

Dude just search for: anal -"anal intercourse" "tail plug"

@petertje no idea where you're taking your data from, but I've just looked for [anal -"anal intercourse] and I checked 40 random works from before the "anal intercourse" tag was introduced, and out of 40 I found like 3 that might not be "anal intercourse", and yes I mean "might". 1 had tentacles, does that count? I don't know. 1 had bestiality, does it count? I think it should. 1 had an old artstyle and was in japanese which both made it hard to tell if there was anal intercourse or not, but other than a penis, every other object penetrated the anus A few things I should mention is that I mostly looked for english works, I excluded tags like "pegging" and "females only" that would imply there's no penis anyway. Also I excluded yaoi since it seems too obvious. To make it random I checked the first work on every 10 pages (starting from the oldest entries). Lastly I also checked an extra 30 works on my favorites and they also all had anal intercourse except 1 or 2

> "anal intercourse" in a work with "anal" should be the standard, not the exception. But it's not and historically it hasn't been. That's the whole reason the anal intercourse tag was made in the first place. Also I think a tag for the lack of something instead of a tag for the inclusion of something doesn't make any sense.

i do think they should be merged. for anything else that isnt penetration there should just be a separate tag for it i.e. "anal fingering" etc

ok, I'll just give this suggestion one last push and then I just hope it gets resolved one way or the other This is an argument that has been made quite a few times already and it has been successful so far. If a tag would be a default then it shouldn't be added (such as "vanilla", "vaginal intercourse", "fully naked", etc.). The same reasoning should be applied to tags. "anal intercourse" in a work with "anal" should be the standard, not the exception. As we've already discussed, the reason why only 1/4 of them are tagged with "anal intercourse" is that it's a recent tag that older works don't have, which is why I made the suggestion in the first place. Rather than tagging all of those works as "anal intercourse", it's much more convenient to create a new tag like "toys only anal" and add the tag to the exceptions

I believe (anal intercourse) should stay, and have (anal) encompass all “butt stuff” tags

@petertje I've actually just realized you were saying that new works would still get the "anal intercourse" tag since it's a thing on exhentai. Which makes your argument to reject the suggestion much more compelling. But I don't know if that's true

@petertje As for downsides I see only 1 that's worth considering, which is it helps people find specific works if they don't remember all details or the details are just too common. And even then it doesn't help too much as it's still a very common tag, and in a sense it also hinders you as you clearly remember it had anal intercourse, but as you said older works don't have that tag, which would just confuse people even more. Actually you're making me realize it's actually better to merge the tags after all. Anyway the other downside that's not worth considering is if some people are specifically turned on/off more by the idea of anal intercourse rather than other anal things, which just sounds weird to me and that's why I'm not putting a lot of weight into that in conclusion, since older works are missing the tag, to avoid confusion, I think it makes more sense to just merge the tags. I mean, who's gonna add the "anal intercourse" to all other works otherwise?

@petertje well, first of all, the 1k suggestions is just an illusion, most of them are just descriptions. The fact they only resolved 80 so far just proves my point that they're taking it slow. Like some suggestions would actually take a few seconds to resolve as they are non-sense. Meanwhile some very popular suggestions that have no controversy at all haven't been accepted yet Then for one, we can remove tags if they don't apply anymore, and for two all works with "anal intercourse" still contain "anal". So the only real issue is if "anal intercourse" is needed in the first place. And I get there's a difference, but it's really not as clearly defined as you say. "anal intercourse" is a subtag of "anal". And that's where my idea of merging the tags comes from. People were already suggesting subtags of existing tags. So I thought we should avoid doing that just to keep things more clean, and that's the whole upside of the suggestion. In the next part I explain downsides

>Otherwise why haven't they rejected this yet? There's 1k+ suggestions and only 80 have been resolved so far. This doesn't mean anything. But I think you really have to understand what it means to merge an original tag and why that is in most cases undesirable. The source of the tags will keep using the old tag. The only cases where a merge of original tags would make sense is if a tag was misspelled or it was renamed at the source i.e. exhentai. But also the fact remains that there is a distinction and the distinction is clear. There is no reason to remove that distinction and thus remove people's ability to filter more specifically. There are no real downsides to keeping the tags separate, but there are multiple real downsides to merging them.

@petertje to be fair I hadn't read the guidelines yet lol. In my defense there wasn't one (or at least I'm pretty sure) when the taxonomy system had just been implemented. Anyway after checking them and what merges they accepted/rejected so far, I can see how the suggestion might seem against the guidelines. But in the first place the reason I suggested the merge is because to me they're similiar enough to where a distinction is not needed. If it was just about merging I wouldn't have proposed it, but with new tags being created it only makes sense that some tags are gonna become at least somewhat redundant and this looked like a prime candidate. In the end to me it looks like guidelines aren't as strict as they seem. Otherwise why haven't they rejected this yet? My best guess is that they're taking their time choosing likely permanent changes, and that includes rejecting changes. Or maybe they're just having fun reading all the discussions and have actually already decided to reject

According to the guidelines: Merges only for real synonyms. If the tags mean different things on some galleries, propose a description instead. Considering these tags do not mean the same, they should not be merged.

@petertje now that you've explained it, it actually make sense. And while doing a through check would require too much time I can see that for the most part they add the intercourse tag appropriately, for the most part that is Anyway the distinction still doesn't feel necessary to me. And for now 3/4 people seems to agree. Overall I think it's fine to keep it, mainly because right now it can help someone find specific works. Though I still think that in the long run, when all tags are gonna be virtually applied correctly, it's not gonna be necessary In the end I believe that a balance is needed between the amount of tags and how easy it is to find what you're looking for, and finding something with anal intercourse doesn't seem that hard

There seems to be a lot of ignorance on where the tags originate from so let me explain. Nhentai scrapes all of its content from exhentai. Exhentai uses male/female specific tags, but nhentai removes the distinction when scraping. Before the recent update, once a doujin is scraped its tags would never change again. Since "anal intercourse" is a newer tag than "anal" this means a lot of older doujins will only have the "anal" tag but no "anal intercourse". The most sensible approach would be to keep the anal/anal intercourse distinction. Just update the tags of older anal doujins now that it's possible to do so. And if you want them to be gendered just make new tags and get to tagging old stuff. This sites needs more tags, not less. One of the main reasons that the tagging on this site is such a mess is because it unnecessarily merged tags in the first place.

My real issue with these tags are the lack of gendering, it should be split into gendered variations with a legacy tag -unspecified:anal (for legacy tagging) -male:anal -female:anal Same for stuff like blowjobs / anal-intercourse etc. Currently having to rely on multi-tagging (in the hopes all tags are assigned correctly) to filter between gay/straight anal or even gay/straight male anal is a problem with the current tags.

that's what I'm saying though. Most of the doujin that should have the anal intercourse tag don't. At most it might be better to create a "toys only" tag, though I guess "solo action" already creates the distinction whetever there's a real dick or not (unless we want to consider the extreme case of someone somehow fucking themselves)

"Anal intercourse" is a great distinction, tags like "anal fingering" might be too much since it's pretty much in every doujin with anal, but a lot of anal stuff also has dildos and the such. I think removing a tag from 30k doujin is too much when it's just about 1/4th the count of the parent tag. It's just enough distinction to keep it.